Guest Speaker
Mark Casanova
A clinician by trade and Executive Director of Homeless Healthcare Los Angeles, Mark Casanova brings extensive expertise in development, outreach, fundraising, and managing community-led programs that aim to resolve the issues surrounding homelessness. Mark is an advocate for harm reduction and leads the Syringe Exchange Program at HHLA in an effort to decrease the risk of overdose within the homeless.
Intro
Global Partners for Development proudly presents: What Do You Understand? A deep dive into the many facets of philanthropy and development. We will have conversations about what really works and what really doesn’t. Do we know yet how to solve poverty? Are big ideas the answer or do we need to look for small grassroots solutions? Experts in their field will discuss an aspect of their work that they understand particularly well. We will delve into how their work addresses global inequity with an honest conversation about impact.
Let’s talk about big bets, innovation, social enterprises, large-scale humanitarian aid, and the fixation on ending things or solving humanity’s greatest problems and the issues that arise while tackling it all. I am your host Ria Pullin, and my co-host is the Executive Director of Global Partners for Development, Daniel Casanova.
Ria
And our guest today is Mark Casanova, the Executive Director of Homeless Healthcare Los Angeles. Hi Mark! And hey, there’s a similar last name, is there a relationship?
Mark
Yeah, there you go. Well, thank you for having me and yes, uh, there is, as you, as you know, that’s my beautiful son there, yeah.
Daniel
Yeah. Nepotism.
Mark
That’s it.
Daniel
Thank you for letting us interview you, dad.
Ria
This is a—this is a surprise guest. He has no idea this was happening, uh, he winter storm canceled our previous guests, so here we are.
Mark
Well, I’m happy to be here, so let’s have this conversation.
Ria
Let’s have this conversation. What’s one thing through your whole time working in philanthropy, what is the one thing you have learned and know particularly well?
Mark
Well, as it relates to philanthropy, uh, I actually, um, I’m a clinician by trade. So initially I hit the work from a real practical, um, care for people. My parents were really giving, caring people and they just passed that onto me and I, my whole life. I’ve been just doing kind things for people every day. And, um, but, but in terms of that, so I entered the field as a, as an expert becoming an expert ultimately about.
Uh, what people need to, um, uh, resolve the issues or concerns, problems they had as it relates to, uh, homelessness. And, um, along the way, I became the director, which lo and behold involved in a lot of development, a lot of, uh, fundraising. And so, in my early years, actually, I was lucky enough to, to meet a pretty amazing development person who actually gave me the one lesson that I’ve carried the whole time, which is a development is addition.
It’s getting one and keeping one. That’s it. So, you’re collecting whatever it is that—that can, um, further, uh, your mission or, you know, so it’s been a pretty simple thing of adding and adding and keeping and keeping and lo and behold 30-some odd years later, I have a collection of donors and friends who, who support us, but, um, you know, so the exciting part of what I do, I haven’t talked about Homeless Healthcare.
I can, I, I, it’s an exciting thing for me. I come to work with a smile. I love this, and that’s what I expressed to my donors. A real happy view of, of what it’s like coming to work for a group like this, but also a beautiful view of, of what you do that, that, you know, I, I can give you the cliches of how they make a difference and, you know, how people’s lives are changed.
But, uh, I just think it’s more, more so in development, the, the energy and the excitement about what you do, cause it’s almost more important for them to see, um, that this is a group that not only cares, but it’s really jazzed to come to work. It’s not—you want to be a part of something. I think everybody, you know, no different than our clients.
I did a talk on Monday about communal belonging and, you know, in the targeted group I work with, um, w—w we enforce sanctions and, you know, it’s a group of people who have, have been, um, rejected disenfranchised and then told what to do, told how to do it and punished. And whether it’s the courts, the police, the criminal justice system, the, the, the shelter telling them, you know, that, if they don’t change, they have to get out.
Or, uh, just about anything that the folks experiencing homelessness and who may use drugs, um, get, but for Homeless Health care, it’s, it’s really, um, uh, having relationships, are more important than forcing on these sanctions.
Ria
Yeah
Mark
And so that, that leads to this communal belonging that, um, is really important because if you, if you can work with people who haven’t belonged, and they can get from us, uh, something that, that promotes health and wellness, and yeah.
It’s a beautiful thing. I think fundraising is the same thing. It’s getting people to come in in a communal way to, to, to be part of something that’s bigger than, than what’s going on in their life.
Ria
So what, what drew you to working with the homeless populations? You said 30 something years ago. What was it in your background that drew you to work with that population?
Mark
Well, I was sitting at a therapist’s couch and looking at her and I thought, I want this gig. Somebody walks in and they lay down and they pay you money and I thought, gee, I want that job. So, I started to do the work. I went to a shelter, and I thought, how difficult is it to, to help somebody find a home and, uh, low and behold, it’s really difficult.
Ria
Oh man.
Mark
That and people don’t have just one issue. They have many and a lot of barriers and access issues and so I learned at an early going that this was where I wanted to work and, and, um, in LA it’s a big problem. So, uh, it was tackling a big problem that, that had a lot of hope in it to, to change the system and to, to not just give out a bandaid, so to speak.
Ria
Right
Mark
The—the day to day work but be part of a bigger solution.
So yeah, that’s what drew me in, into this arena of, of homelessness.
Ria
And also, so like I grew up in Europe and I don’t feel like I saw as much of this issue until I moved back to America. Is there something inherently in our systems here in America that contribute to the homeless situations that we have in a lot of our big cities?
Mark
Uh, it’s just a big problem. The socioeconomic, you name it, it, it, it, it’s a problem way beyond, um, necessarily what we can do as, as service providers or even, uh, people in society that want to help build affordable housing and all those things. It’s, you know, it’s kinda like that parable where—with the babies coming down the river and, and, uh, you know, a kid from the village finally standing up, and because the village had created all these great things to save these babies, and he says, well, why don’t we just go up the river and find out where they’re coming from?
And similarly with homelessness, it’s kind of, that problem is, like, let’s prevent what’s going on and we might actually put an end to it because the problem is so deep and so, uh, costly that I’m not sure that we’re going to do anything more than put a dent in it and it’s going to take a restructuring and re—re remake redo of how we look at it and what we do, and definitely in the target I do it’s, uh, primarily around addiction, it’s about harm reduction and redoing the punishment scheme of what we do.
We punish people and enforce sanctions and we don’t, uh, uh, decriminalize or make it an environment where people just come to it because they have to, and there’s no threat of arrest and there’s no threat of—of these kinds of sanctions that kick you out of programs and exclude you and create access problems.
So, there’s big changes have to be made and those changes are not necessarily within the homeless arena. It’s kind of from, without, kind of up the river so to speak. Definitely in a socioeconomic way, it’s—it’s building enough affordable housing that, that we need, and we have nowhere near.
So, in Europe they have more housing, and in other countries they don’t have those sanctions. Portugal, uh, the Netherlands that, countries that have already really given a great thought about public health and about, uh, harm reduction and how you help people. And you don’t criminalize them for being unhoused or for having addictions or, or in, in the US for being black and brown, you know, for, um, uh, you know, it’s kind of cool.
I think we need to have social justice intersect with, um, harm reduction. It’s this really cool intersect social justice, public health, just boom. And then there’s, there’s a great resolution that, that we do it for the right reasons and we do it with conviction and, um, we actually decriminalize uh, and, uh, some of these things that, that force on us, uh, to devote our money and our resources to help people in a public health way get their health.
Daniel
But it’s hard, it’s hard right? Because the US is punitive, I mean, I think so from a micro cosmos, if you’re looking at it, just, if we, if we talk about LA, right, like it’s about the simple question to be like, can LA and homelessness? And then my two parts of that is, is it, or is that a dumb question? Like, is it, you know, like, is there a solution, is there a solvable thing?
Are there people that are working on it? Like what does that timeline look like? Do you, I mean, so do you think, can you end homelessness in Los Angeles?
Mark
Well, it’s recent. It’s interesting that that came up in a question yesterday. I was on another call. We’re doing a homeless count in LA so in a practical way, I could tell you in a couple of days, or month or so, when the results come out.
Everybody’s thinking it’s increased and meanwhile, we’ve devoted a billion extra dollars into this issue in LA to solve or put a dent in ending it. And. I I’d like to think that all this money is going to do it, but my hunch is it’s not because the, the, the front door is as big as the, the back door. So, the exit is, is similar to the entrance and if not greater at the entrance, so we’re doing something wrong.
Daniel
Yeah. No.
Mark
If our goal is to end it, if it’s to end it, you know, and to me it’s less about ending it more about, um, uh, going upstream and figuring out in, in, in a different way kind of, well, what are the other things that we could help prevent? You know, it’s almost easier to prevent people from falling into something than it is to devote all these resources, uh, with people.
Multiple problems of mental health, and addiction, and, and health issues, really severe health issues that complicate, uh, somebody’s life and make it even more difficult to place them in, in housing. And yeah, a lot easier, you know, we prevent health problems, prevent some of the fallout from addictions and, and try to resolve it that way.
So, the flow of is decreased and the, the flow out is increased and yeah, when that shift happens, then I would answer, that’s the long answer to say, maybe someday we’ll have a solution. I don’t think we have it right now.
Daniel
But, but doesn’t it seem dumb that we can’t. Like, given the resources that are in California, that there’s so much money that we can’t.
And then the, so from my perspective, and I’m not an expert like you, so, I’d be like, ee can’t agree on things. So, like on a, on a conservative side, there have been historical movements, like when Worden came into LA and moved all the homeless out of skid row, right? Like liberal people, like that’s terrible, right?
Mark
Right
Daniel
Like you can’t, like, make homelessness illegal. And, and, but on the flip side, I feel, like, I kind of want, I mean, if I, it I’m like, why, why can’t, why shouldn’t it be illegal to be homeless? Why shouldn’t it be illegal to not tap, not take care of, people that like can’t take care of themselves. Shouldn’t the system take care of them?
I think that obviously they shouldn’t be put in jail right?
Mark
Right.
Daniel
But I I’m, I’m actually asking rhetorical questions. I know the answer. It’s just like, there just aren’t those resources. But I think at the top, right, people aren’t making those choices and they don’t, and I think that politicians don’t know how to. People wouldn’t like it, right?
Mark
Right
Daniel
It’s like, oh, we can’t in America, to answer your question, we’re way too punitive. We’re like, oh no, no, no, no, no, we can’t give someone all of that stuff. Why would we do that? Like, they’re lazy. Those are lazy. They’re, they’re drug, lazy drug addicts. That’s why they’re homeless.
Mark
Right.
Daniel
So, so my thought is like, right, if you think about the different people in the systems, right. There’s that bottom group, which is I’m imagining who you work with mostly, which is severely, mentally ill, substance using, chronically homeless people right? That should be solvable.
Mark
Right
Daniel
But, and so, do you feel like there are initiatives in place now or there is there enough in the zeitgeists in local government that people get that to solve that part, that piece of the homeless issue?
Mark
Yes, I absolutely and that’s what I’m saying. I think there are, uh, really wonderful things that address, um, not necessarily addiction, but definitely address homelessness and the support that somebody needs to get off the street and, and a solution that, that, um, that has been working. It’s just, there obviously is nowhere near the amount of resources being put into that to, to put a dent in it.
But sometimes I think it’s less about the money and more about what you’re saying, the people that are making those decisions, that therein lies the problem, because a legislator politician are trying to satisfy many things beyond homelessness. So, they’re, they’re concerned about the folks that aren’t homeless in their community and listening to them.
And this, this NIMBY not in my backyard kind of thing really exists and for the most part in LA there’s not, uh, an overwhelming percentage of neighborhoods that even want to deal with this problem. They, they just don’t want it. Out of sight, out of seen, and that, that is, makes it even more challenging. So, yeah.
Definitely what you’re saying is true. Good rhetorical question that I don’t have the rhetorical answer for, but, uh.
Daniel
I was just talking to myself.
Mark
Yes, I figured.
Daniel
I mean, I have all my bad ideas. I mean, I’m like, I feel like I’m conservative liberal in both. I’d be like, we should outlaw homelessness, like, we should make it illegal. Let the government figure out what to do with all those people. I mean, obviously—
Mark
But go to the extreme that you talked about, we should just, uh, put them in, put them away. Not only arrest them, kill them, that you can erase the problem, I mean.
Ria
Oh my goodness.
Daniel
Well concentration, homeless concentration camps.
Ria
Oh my.
Mark
There’s lots of space in Omaha.
Ria
Oh my goodness
Mark
And in some ways, I really think there are people that would absolutely want to do that. Maybe not to that extreme, but definitely in a containment way. To move the problem off into a rural kind of industrial, complex.
Ria
I think in the city it’s, it’s a, mostly like a, it’s a, it’s a visual thing. People don’t want to see that as they’re walking down the street, because it maybe reminds them f this other population that they have no grasp of that situation and how desperate they must be to be in that situation.
And as far as population groups with the mentally ill and substance abuse, I’ve noticed, um, my dad is a veteran. That’s why I grew up in Europe. Uh, do you have a lot of veterans as part of your population. Cause I have noticed that when you leave the military, like they will sign you up and they will put a roof over your head and give you a gun and send you overseas.
But I don’t feel like there’s a lot of transitioning from being in the military where they gave you all of your physical needs to when they leave the military and then now they are on their own where they’ve never paid rent before.
Mark
Yeah. Check it out. The vet population, I believe is the one we are addressing.
Ria
Okay.
Mark
That because of exactly the way in which you described it, I think the powers that be at, at the VA, the powers that be within communities have really done a 360 in the sense of wanting to help veterans and the, the, the, the vets, uh, the lobbying arm of people that want, that support have actually set, uh, like a goal of ending it for vets and, uh, you know, they’re using, uh, VA properties and, and all the resources they have now.
I don’t know how, how much they’ve accomplished in terms of it, but there, there really is that concerted effort. And to me, it’s kind of like an answering Daniel’s question, um, yeah. There are solutions it’s very interesting. And, and for a specific target, the other target is women and children.
Ria
Yeah.
Mark
There are big efforts, so, you know, and those tend to be the ones that the community kind of embraces. This one, served our country, so, we should help them. This is a mom and her kid; we should help them. And meanwhile, the 80% of the problem is single men.
Ria
Yeah.
Mark
And men of color primarily and the resources definitely needed to—to address that particular segment. There isn’t the same kind, gentle, wonderful thought of ending it.
Ria
Right.
Mark
But to answer your question directly, yes, I think we’re headed that way and it appears there’s many groups working together to do that.
Ria
So, you we were talking about band-aids earlier. What are the band-aids that our society is putting on homeless, the homeless situation?
Mark
Healthcare, mental healthcare, uh, food vouchers, immediate shelter, I think, yeah, we, we see a problem. We’re putting our finger in the Dyke, so to speak so it just doesn’t leak or break down. And it’s not really addressing the deeper problem of ending it for some people because those resources, uh, really are more costly. They, they.
Daniel
Well, there’s a lot of—mine are like the Bomba socks, you know.
Mark
There you go.
Daniel
I mean, not that homeless people don’t need socks, but like.
Mark
Clothing, hygiene center. We operate a hygiene center. 30,000 people a month go to it. Uh, restrooms, showers, laundromat facilities, but that’s just keeping people hygienically safe and free from some of the problems you get for not keeping up your hygiene or having a safe place to go use a restroom.
Ria
Yeah.
Mark
Or, you know, and, um, but the band-aids just, you know, what you need is those people in their own home with the bathroom and food to eat and, and, uh, you know,
Daniel
Wait, people should have their own bathrooms?
Mark
Yeah, I think so.
Daniel
Weird.
Ria
You kind of answered my question a little bit, so, at Homeless Healthcare in Los Angeles, what services do you provide other than the bathrooms you were saying? What other services do you provide for the homeless community?
Mark
We have, uh, an array of, of, of programming from outreach. We have outreach teams that go out on the street and, uh, encampments parks, alleys, streets.
And we also have, uh, uh, outreach that goes on around substance use, where people and mental health, where we’re in addition to reaching people who are on the street, they’re, they’re able to, to assess and provide a level of field-based care. We do the hygiene center. As I said, we have a syringe exchange program that, uh, distributes about two to 3 million syringes a year out of a site that offers a really cool lifesaving drug Naloxone. Reverses, an overdose.
So, we’re also, uh, helping people stay alive. ‘Cause one thing I know for certain is if you’re dead, you can’t get housing.
Ria
Very true. You have to be alive to have a house.
Mark
So, you have to be alive. Yeah. You have to be alive. And so the, the effort we need to do is to keep people alive that are overdosing on an opiate. And so that’s one of the absolutely huge, huge, uh, uh, programming we do is around. That drug Naloxone.
All of my programs handed out. And then we land people in, into treatment and to mental health and substance use treatment, progressive treatment. And, and lastly, we also, um, provide housing programs where people can come in and, and, um, continue their journey so to speak to, uh, that leads to permanent housing.
And yeah, it’s, it’s a complete formula. We, we love it. We do trainings as well. We train people in the community how to be great, uh, a social worker, case manager types. And, um, lastly advocacy, you can’t just hand out these band-aids, you have to figure out systemically how to change the system so it works better for everybody. It’s that public health kind of the greater good.
Ria
Yeah.
Mark
All of us are encountering folks on the street. So, it would be good to know that good public health is going on to protect our kids, to protect us and to protect the people that are on the streets. So everybody benefits from this good public health.
Daniel
Yeah.
Ria
So to end, is there one project that you’re working at, working on at Homeless Healthcare Los Angeles, that you’re excited about? Like a new venture that you’re going into?
Mark
Well, we started one and it leads to another, but we pay drug users, which I love, we pay them to work for us.
Ria
Oh.
Mark
They’re active drug users and they do outreach. So, this was a program by design that was created by drug users, it was implemented by drug users, drug users work with other drug users. Who better in the community to know what, what’s needed than somebody that’s from the community and then they have saved lives and, and brought support to their community, and I love that program.
We need to have more programming like that. It’s unique. I can’t think of anyone else in the US to the volume of what we’re doing. It’s, it’s got a couple hundred people that are enrolled in it and, you know, 40 or 50 people on a regular basis do it. But what it’s leading to is the exciting program I want to do, which is a safe consumption site or overdose prevention site.
Which is actually a place for people to come and do heroin and injecting, or smoke meth, or inject meth. I know it sounds kind of wacky, but the thought is, is that in a public health way, people should be careful with what they put in their body and how they put it in and not die from it so that those facilities will help keep people alive.
And, uh, that’s where we’re headed. Uh, and there is legislation in California that’s being brought up to ultimately to the governor that hopefully will sign it next year and it, it, it, it’s not too far off. They do it in other countries. We have a partner in Copenhagen that actually allows people to come in with cocaine, powder cocaine, make it into crack and smoke it. Isn’t that a novel idea?
And, uh, heroin and they’re able to, in a safely way, uh, use, and there’s a shelter on site too, a hundred bed shelter that people can stay and it’s kind of like this containment logic of if we’re going to decriminalize it, which is what they’ve done, they’ve decriminalized the simple, uh, recreational use of drugs.
Then, we need to provide a space for people to do it that’s safe and, a space for people if they want to end it or get out of it, it’s there and everybody wins. The community wins and people are alive and they transition into the community and I’d love to have more of that in, uh, Los Angeles. Uh, politically or even in our community, it’s not like, this is an idea that everybody is saying, Ooh, let’s do it, but I do believe we’ve changed and we’re headed that way.
Daniel
So, we need to share this then with the conservative people that want to shut you down so we can make them angry and motivate them to—
Mark
To fight even harder.
Daniel
Yeah.
Ria
Because they—I, I’m assuming they think you’re just promoting drug use. I’m assuming that’s what their thoughts are.
Mark
Absolutely. Absolutely, and what the fact is, if you go to Portugal who has decriminalized drugs and also offered a lot of programming for people who use drugs and other countries that have looked at drug use differently, there’s a reduction in drug use, significant reduction, the reduction in the disease burden where HIV and hepatitis and other bloodborne diseases are prevented at greater numbers than what the US does.
And just simple things. People’s, uh, uh, quality of life and, and homelessness. All those numbers are decreased by changing, uh, just the view of, uh, of, of addiction and substance use.
Ria
I just feel like kind of on a human level, if you tell someone you can’t do something because you’re going to get in trouble, you’re going to exessibly do it because it’s kind of, um, you tell a kid that you’d say, you know, don’t, don’t touch that. What are they going to do? Or the marshmallow trick. They’re going to shove both marshmallows in their mouth because someone’s looking.
Daniel
Drugs feel really good, so I just don’t get why people want to feel good and do them.
Mark
Hey exactly. You know let me tell you my last little, let me tell you my last little diddy.
Ria
Sure.
Mark
Years ago, I went to the LAPD, we did outreach programs in the jails. Uh, LA has a couple, a city jail, a county jail, they’re busy all the time and we were doing a program of harm reduction, which really reduces risk primarily, but it also connects people.
Those are the two tenants of harm reduction. Really connects people with resources up and down. And they wanted us to meet with people who were just exiting out of jail and, and we were going to do our harm reduction thing, lead them to a resource, but the LAPD was interested in—they wanted to make sure that the program, uh, reduced recidivism that people weren’t going to commit crimes and come back to jail.
And, you know, I mean, that wasn’t necessarily our program, but I said, well, I do have a program that we’re not operating right now, but we can, if you’re interested in hearing about it, that would end recidivous. And he goes, I love it.
The guy’s name was Gentle Winter. He’s a—
Ria
Oh.
Mark
I love that, that a cop is named Gentle Winter, I’m just adding it publicly. But yeah, I mean, what a, I don’t—is that thing called like an oxymoron, you know, or whatever.
Daniel
Yeah
Mark
Um, so I, I told him, I said, well, here’s the program: just don’t arrest them, and then we have a program that meets your goal a hundred percent, you know, and it’s interesting, you know, the very thing that you want as an outcome is the very thing that they control themselves.
Ria
Yeah.
Mark
Just save the money and these are low level crimes that these people aren’t doing violent acts or, or harming other people they’re just recreationally using a substance. I mean, alcohol’s legal, come on. We had prohibition and we know that didn’t work. I mean, and my son, you can articulate this a hundred times better than me.
Ria
Where is this going?
Mark
He reads books and I don’t. So, you have the longer history of the drug war, the war on drugs.
Daniel
Yeah.
On another time, this makes me think we’ll have to—I’ve been thinking for this podcast to have it be kind of a tag you’re it? We should do another episode on drug legalization, so like tag you’re it!
Mark
Let’s get my friend—
Daniel
Tag you’re it! Let’s bring the person to talk with us.
Mark
Let’s get Peter from Copenhagen.
Daniel
Yeah.
Mark
My buddy Moeller, who runs what’s that side. I, he’s one of the people behind the, uh.
Daniel
Yeah.
Mark
That movement in Denmark and Copenhagen.
Mark
Yeah, it’d be cool to have somebody like him talk openly about what they do in Copenhagen.
Daniel
Yeah.
Mark
And, you know, as a juxtapose, yeah, that’d be cool.
Ria
Yeah. That’d be great. That’s why we’re doing this, just to kind of have a fresh perspective on handling all of these issues that we deal with here. But thank you so much, it was so good meeting you.
Mark
Yes.
Ria
I, I think this is adorable that you two are just such good dudes.
Mark
Yeah.
Ria
Good dudes doing good things.
Daniel
You know, so, the in closing with this, what I’d say is we’re going to go back to the beginning. One of the things, but since this—you were on the spot, you didn’t get it. One of the things that we want, I want to get people to do is—
Mark
Development?
Daniel
Not development, not philanthropy from that perspective. So here’s my thought: in your field period, what do you think is the one thing you feel the most certain about, or know, or understand the most?
And that if you were talking to some about that, and I am putting on the spots, it’s a hard thing, like, people have joked with me, like, oh, I only know about foods my six year old likes or, like, I know this, but I do think that you’re an expert in your field and you’ve said a lot of things, but is there ever the moments when you’re, when you’re like really with clarity, thinking about what you understand about homelessness in LA, substance abuse, this thing, what is it?
What could you tell someone where you don’t feel like an ass being like, I’m really certain that this is the right thing to do, or this is something I know?
Mark
What I’m best at is, is articulating and knowing, um, compassion and, and non-judgment in working with people, cause that, that really is the answer. I tell my staff what I’m really good at:
Just be frigging nice to people. I’m expert at that, expert and how it translates for clinicians in—in, who are doing therapy or, um, doctors who are working in the field or anybody, whether you appear on the street out of a personal experience, to a person that’s been through years of college.
Yeah, I’m expert at translating that into their work and that that’s something I’ve worked at since day one and, uh, that’s the vibe we have at my work it’s—it’s kindness and compassion and—
Ria
I love that.
Mark
Yeah. We’re just kind people, and yeah.
Daniel
Good answer!
Mark
There you go.
Ria
That was fantastic. I’ve always said that the way to solve everything is the kindness and respect. I just feel like having respect for the people, respect for this planet we live on.
Mark
Yeah.
Ria
I just, there’s so much lack of respect that I feel like, has made a lot of division or of budding heads or—
Mark
Yeah, and said another, said another way is to me, you create programs that you would be willing to be in. So, it’s an easy one. So, you look at a program, you go, would I go in? And some of them, I thought, no, I ain’t going to go into this crap.
Daniel
Yeah.
Mark
But you design things that you yourself would—would be willing and able, and love to walk in, and that’s the challenge in terms of making sure you have the resources. That’s why development fundraising is such an important thing in the position I have, but you got to have the money in the books to hire the good people and to get the resources you need for those people to be able to do their job. And you gotta be kind to them too, unfortunately. No.
Ria
I love that little snippet. I love that little snippet too. That was awesome.
Daniel
Well.
Ria
Thank you so much, mark. It was so good to meet you. I hope next time we could do your interview in person.
Mark
Yes. Let’s try to do that next time I’m up. We could do that too. Maybe we can plan it. I don’t know.
Daniel
Peter.
Mark
Yeah. Let’s try to get Peter.
Daniel
You did good, we won’t make fun of you too much after.
Mark
Yeah, exactly. I’m going to get up and you’ll go, there’s my old dad. Yeah.
Daniel
I love you, man.
Mark
I love you too.
Ria
You guys are so sweet. I love this so much.
Mark
He’s my favorite. Don’t tell his brothers and sisters. The boat’s sinking, who do I save? Okay.
Don’t tell James. I would save James.
Daniel
Oh yeah, that’s true.
Mark
He’s a baby.
Daniel
He’s a baby. He’s a baby.
Mark
A young baby. He needs to be saved.
Ria
Well, thank you for giving us some of your time.
Disscussion
Ria
You and your dad are so cute. Can I start with that?
Daniel
Yeah.
Ria
I just think you guys are really great guys.
Daniel
Yeah, no, it’s like, really nice to hear him talk. I’m like, oh, you did good. I was worried for him. I’m like, what are you going to say? You know, what are you going to say old man?
Ria
You can tell he’s so passionate about what he does.
Daniel
Yeah.
Ria
And that, if only more minds we’re in positions of power that could change things, as he said up the river. I’ve thought about that so much since he said that.
Daniel
Yeah
Ria
About that instead of trying to catch the babies at the end of the river, figure out why they’re being sent down the river in the first place.
Daniel
Yeah.
Ria
So what are—how are you gonna fix it Daniel?
Daniel
Uh, I don’t know. I mean, well, the, yeah, there—there’s so many pieces to the homeless crisis. Um, I know, I mean, you know, cause I’m close to my dad, I believe in a lot of his interventions. And I think he’s focused on a very hyper specific population, which is like, mentally ill, substance abusing people that are chronically homeless and really the, that population’s really challenging to help get off the streets. But I think they have effective models for doing it.
I think the broader scale piece is like, we’re talking about it’s like, I think that, we need to think more about making laws at the state level that really put experts in the right places and also fund the right types of projects and it’s just going to be expensive, and we know what will work, I think, but it just takes like, not just building housing and getting people housed, but then having huge teams of people that can help support those people.
And it’s unpopular. Also, those individuals need income from the state and people don’t want to do that.
Ria
What’s your view on what Gavin Newsom is trying to do for the state of California to address homelessness?
Daniel
I mean, I think it’s fine. I think again, there’s two, it’s ineffective only because at city levels there’s too much resistance around what intervention to do.
So, there, there’s not enough money, not enough money and then also there needs, I mean, this is, uh, I mean, we were just talking about other politics, so there’s like, there needs to be a focused solution. So, like, even if it’s the wrong solution, we need to like, get all, get behind one idea for how to do it and then see if that works or doesn’t work. What happens is I think that we don’t agree and it’s, it’s all fissured.
Ria
What are the partisan sides? What are the partisan sides? What does the left say about homelessness and what does the right say about homelessness?
Daniel
I mean, I, I, there, there, well, so here’s the, so the left problem I see is that they’re like, oh, people have a right to be homeless if they want to, right?
And so I think that there’s, and there’s different ideologies that kind of fit in that generalization. And the problem with that is I’m like, no, I don’t think people should be allowed to live in unsanitary, unhealthy conditions where they need mental health treatment or substance use, or like, we, it should be like, not—not in the way that the right thinks about it, but homelessness should be outlawed, but you should not be allowed to live in a tent camp, right?
Like we don’t, like we should at least have refugee camps. So, like then on the right side though, is there more this like racial Alger story kind of thing of like, oh no, those people are lazy. Like we, there’s, oh, there’s the worthy poor that we should be helping, which are people that are like, you know, like mothers and children.
Ria
That’s what he said like the vets and the mothers and children, but where it was like 70 plus percentage of homelessness are single men.
Daniel
Yeah, and so those people I’ve met things with the right would because they’re not worthy of it or they don’t need to be homeless. Right. They could work, look at all these jobs that are out there, like, they just need to stop being lazy.
Ria
Yeah. Is it more just like, it’s not even about being lazy, do they understand about the, being unwell mentally, or having substance abuse issues and if you haven’t been touched by that, you don’t understand.
Daniel
Yeah.
Ria
Is that what it is? Because I feel like the left is more bleeding heart, trying to, like, understand why they are living the way they are, and the right is you could just get over it. Right?
Daniel
Yeah. I mean, I think it’s kind of like that.
Ria
Is that what it is?
Daniel
Yeah, and I think that the, but I think where the left could meet the right, is I think that, there are these interventions like we should outlaw. I think that the right solution is like, oh, the police should be doing this. Right. But homeless people don’t need to be in jails. We don’t need to criminalize it at that extent, but we need to like criminalize it with compassion so that there’s, there’s this, like, system for people to go through.
And then that’s where it gets complicated politics is then there needs to be the funding and then there needs to be expertise. Right? You need to then have lots of social workers, a lot of mental health providers, lots of people that are good at housing or really difficult type of population, and then recognize that those people are going to move in and out of services.
But it’s going to be cheaper overall than like frequent flyers that are, you know—
Ria
Right.
Daniel
Inundating our emergency rooms and stuff like that.
Ria
It’s a lot to think about.
Daniel
It’s too much. It’s depressing.
Ria
And there’s people on the ground thinking about this all the time, right?
Daniel
Yeah.
Ria
It’s just a matter of it actually getting it done.
Daniel
Yeah, but, but I mean, my, my closing thing, and I don’t mean, my dad would agree with me. It’s like, we’re just too wealthy of a state. Even if we’re just going to talk about California, where there is enough wealth here and enough intelligence to manage and mitigate this problem and it’s not. So that’s the part of it that’s asinine for it not getting done, but.
Ria
And you digress.
Daniel
Okay.
Ria
Thanks, Daniel. That’s super helpful.
Outro
At Global Partners for Development, our mission is to advance community-led initiatives that improve education and public health and East Africa. We envision a world in which every East African community has the capacity to implement dynamic, sustainable solutions to the challenges they face to learn more visit GPFD.org.
